March 22, 2023

Take Back Your Phone

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A veteran telecommunications and technology executive, David Sinclair is the Founder and CEO of 4Freedom Mobile, a company whose mission is to help people take back their digital freedom by showing them how to prevent network operators, tech companies, and others from tracking their personal information. David has spent most of the last 30 years outside of the US, selling and managing the implementation of a variety of systems designed around location tracking, facial recognition, and communications surveillance for governments and state-owned organizations in Eastern Europe, Central Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. Due to the nature of the projects he managed, David was often surveilled by government security services in these countries. Excited to come back to the “land of the free”, he was shocked to see how much surveillance now happens in the US. Having been on the other side of things and seeing his concerns shared by others here in the US, David was motivated to find a way to empower people to take back their digital freedom and protect their privacy.

Show Notes

Hello. All you lovely freedom people out there and welcome to today’s Fireside Freedom Chat on the Freedom People podcast where we get into the nitty gritty ease of all your freedoms and my freedoms, all the freedoms that we can think of anyway, as we collectively take this journey to ultimate freedom together. I’m your host, Bradley Freedom. And I want to ask you something real quick. Have you ever wondered how much your phone is really tracking you or where all that data is being stored or what type of regulations are around that information and who owns that data?

That’s exactly what we’re going to talk about with our next guest. David Sinclair. David is the founder and CEO of For Freedom. For Freedom is a exceptional company. They’re doing great things. Um, here in the freedom movement as you know, the freedom people, we love that sort of thing. I sincerely hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did and you learn as much as I did. We’re gonna jump right into it. But before we do, I want you to head on over to the Freedom people dot org and sign up with us to become a contributing member.

You can support us for as little as $0 per month. And that’s gonna get you access to a job board of business directory. Also get you access to our members only sections like the group’s hidden groups that are private where everybody can go and have some interesting conversations without any sort of regulation. It’s a beautiful thing. Alright. Well, let’s get into the show. See you in there. Come on, let’s go. Hi Bradley, how are you? Excellent, good, good. We’re connecting. How you doing today, man? I’m doing well.

Thank you. How are you doing? Beautiful. It’s great. I’m here in Tempe, Arizona. I don’t know where you’re at, but it’s a little rainy here today. So it’s unusual. I’m actually up in Salt Lake City so I can relate. It’s pretty rainy here today as well. Cool. Cool. Awesome, man. A lot of freedom people coming out of Utah. Well, you know, I’m actually not originally from here. I moved up here in August. Oh, okay. So you moved where the freedom people are? Exactly. Exactly. I came out here because I’ve got a startup and I was in a small town in South Georgia and that’s not a great environment for supporting a startup.

You know, when you tell people there, you got a startup, they say is that a car part? Uh I moved here where they got a lot of support, protect startups. It’s a, it’s a great environment for protect startups out here in Salt Lake City. A lot better even than Silicon Valley. Amazing. Well, that’s really cool. So, um um we’re, we’re live so before we even get too far into things, let’s if you could just kind of let everybody know who you are and, and what, what you’re with or yeah, what you do.

So, my name is David Sinclair and I’m the founder and CEO of a company called for Freedom Mobile. We are a freedom focused mobile service provider. Basically, you sign up for us if you want to stop getting tracked by tech companies, network operators and other people through your mobile phone. So you sign up with for Freedom instead of A T and T Verizon T Mobile. And we’re going to prevent other people from being able to collect your data and we don’t collect your data ourselves so we can’t sell it.

Hackers can’t steal it and the government can’t demand it from us. Well, that’s beautiful. Um I’ve actually seen a couple of interviews and, and yeah, it’s uh it’s a real scary situation when you know, like what the laws are or the regulations, right? It’s not really lawful, but it’s regulations around how long they have to keep your text messages and every phone call you make and every everything. It’s uh it’s quite creepy. Um Yeah, so how’d you get into it? What, what, how do I actually used to be?

On the other side of the table on this. So I spent many years doing systems integration outsourcing. My last job in the corporate world, I was actually working for Hewlett Packard HP, managing their systems integration outsourcing business in 10 countries in Eastern Europe. And part of what HP does is implementing systems for mobile operators and government agencies. And that includes systems that can be used for tracking people through their mobile phones. And so I was actually on the other side of the table on this. And uh long story short, I left HP back in 2016 and started my own company doing industrial automation and sold that company in 2010 and moved back to the States in 2019 and started and was all excited.

Come back. They think, wow, I’m finally going back to the land of the free. This is great. I’m not gonna worry about all this surveillance. I’ve been dealing with as a foreigner in these other countries doing, you know, all these government projects and stuff. And I was just shocked and how much surveillance goes on the U S in the U S. I spent most of the last 30 years outside the US. And so coming back here after almost 30 years outside the country, it was just, I was, I was shocked at how much surveillance happens here.

And I started talking with people and everybody that I talked to was like, yeah, we’re all concerned about how much of our data is getting collected through our mobile phones. But, you know, what can you do about it? Nobody can do anything about it. And I thought, well, you know, I’m not the dumbest guy on the planet. I can probably figure something out here and, uh, began playing around with things and it took me a couple of years but I actually, you know, took a hobby and, and, and became a passion and now I’m trying to turn that into a business.

Uh, so, uh, built a platform to be able to protect myself from getting tracked through my mobile phone and then thought, well, I’ll let other people use this too. That’s awesome. Yeah, we, we love that. We did something similar with our crm. Yeah, we built it and then started. Yeah, then that’s awesome. Right on. Okay. So, Wow, you’re 22010 years doing there. You’re out outside of the country and then to come back to this in 24015, Huh? That’s kind of crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Basically from 21000 until 24. I spent most of that time outside the country.

I did have a couple of years in the country and then I have years where you have three months here, six months here, that kind of thing. But, uh, the vast majority of the time I was outside the US working in various countries around the world. Wow. And so then you were able to see from the inside, from being on, like you said that side of the table, you’re able to see how this is really done and how, right, how the sausage is made, so to speak.

Oh, yeah. I mean, and I was working in countries that don’t have the best, uh, privacy protection laws in the world, shall we say? So, I, I spent many years working in Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, The Middle East Africa, various eastern European countries, you know, so I was all over the place. But my last few years, I was 229,299, I was living in Kazakhstan actually. Uh and uh did do some projects for the mobile operators there and, and of course, integrating those systems with the government agencies so that they could pull data from those systems to for their own purposes.

So, so let’s, let’s let’s kind of talk about this for a second cause one of that was, it was, and I can’t remember which interview it was. But this interview I was listening to you and you were talking about what all of these regulations are right for our listeners out there who didn’t see that interview with you, you kind of maybe here in the U S, maybe that’s a good place to start. I don’t know what you think but like here in the US, like what are those regulations around them having to keep your data?

So if you look at what happens in the US today, right? The network operators A T and T Verizon T Mobile will collect all of your data. They’ll collect your location 993 hours a day, seven days a week, they will collect all of your communications. So every phone call you make every text message you send to receive, they will keep a record of that. They keep a copy of the messages. They have the ability to record the calls. They don’t record every call, but they do record a lot of them and they keep that data in their files and have to provide the government with access to it for a minimum of five years.

Now, when you actually read the details on their website, which will discover as most of them, keep it between seven and 299 years and the government effectively has open access to those records. It’s just a part of the rules of being a telecommunications operator in the U S, right? But they’re not, they’re collecting a lot more than that too though. They’re collecting all of your internet activity. They collect your app usage because every app you have connection to the internet when you, when you use it. And so they can tell, oh, he’s using Facebook right now, right.

So they’re, they’re collecting all of that information. Another, another thing you don’t think about you, your phone has a gyroscope in it was a gyroscope, do it? It collects the positioning data of your phone? Is it vertical? Is it laying on its side? What is it? Right. They collect that data as well because, and they used that data so they can determine you woke up this morning. What’s the first thing you did? You picked up your phone to look at the clock where you picked up the phone to see if you got any messages, their calls or anything overnight.

They know what time you woke up this morning. Right. And, and, and they track all of that data and they keep records of it and you know, if you think about it, what do they do with this data? Well, one of course, I’ve already mentioned, they give the government open access to that data, but to every one of the network operators have significant revenue streams generated by selling that data and they will sell that data to anyone with the dollar. They don’t care who it is. You know, there have been stories about things, data getting sold to Vietnamese identity theft ring.

You know, so it’s, it gets told to anybody that’s willing to pay for it. They don’t care who it is. If you look, uh, you’ll discover, discover if you do a little bit of research that all three of the major operators have been fined hundreds of millions of dollars in the last several years for selling people’s real time location data. It’s actually against the law to sell people’s real time location, data, security risk, right? Somebody’s trying to track you down. You know, if you’re, you’re a battered wife and your spouse is trying to track you down today, you can go out on the internet and by people’s real time location data for like 2200 a month, you can get a subscription to track somebody 222 by seven with a real time location data.

The network operators have been selling that data and it’s cheaper for them to pay the fine and keep doing it than it is for them to stop selling it. That shows you how much money they’re making on this stuff, man. That’s just like those big Pharma companies, man, they do the same thing, right? They get, they get all these fines, billions in fines, but they make billions more. So it’s, it’s just more fiscally responsible for them to actually commit the atrocity that it is for them not to, it’s we’re in an upside down world right now, man, upside down world, I saw this type of behavior in countries like Russia and Ukraine and things like that countries that are traditionally, you know, you have people getting bribed and that sort of thing.

So as an example, when I was working in Ukraine, Ukraine passed a law saying every bank has to have a tier three data center. And so I was talking to the I T manager of a local bank and I said, so you know, we can help you build your tier three data center, you can have all that security and we’re not gonna spend millions of dollars building a tier three data center. I said, why he says it’s a lot cheaper for me to just pay a few $1000 bribe to the inspector that comes to check our data center than it is for us to actually build a data center.

And I thought that was kind of unique behavior for the emerging markets for the developing world. I never thought I’d come back to the U S and see that exact same behavior with our, with our corporation. But, but that is actually what happens today is that in many ways cheaper for them to just pay the fines than to actually comply with the law with regards to the privacy of our personal information, man. That’s, it’s a scary thought, right? I mean, and, and the thing is, is it’s real and we, we’ve seen it kind of like real time and, and happening over the past couple of years, right.

It’s just been, um, in everybody’s face, I think more and more people are now kind of awake to the fact that we’ve been tracked. Um, and that we’re kind of under the thumb of all these big government service corporations. It’s nuts. So, so why like, okay, so, uh why or how, how our federal, the FCC, right, the Federal Communications Commission really kind of regulates everything right, as far as in this space, right? In the mobile phone space or, or just television in the telecommunications internet service providers, that sort of thing.

Yes, that they’re the primary regulator. Right. So does, do you have to fall under their regulations somewhere? So, the rules are a little bit different depending on the type of company you are. So technically, we’re not, we’re not classified as a telecommunication service provider, were classified as an internet service provider. And, and the reason is the following, a telecommunication service provider is a company that provides voice service and SMS services. Those companies are considered telecommunications service providers. We actually provide data only service and then we use our app to provide you with encrypted ability to make phone calls and SMS on that sort of thing.

So it’s a, it’s a voice over I P type of technology, but, but essentially we are classified as an internet service provider, which means our data collection requirements are different. Beautiful. No, that’s amazing. I really like that, that the freedom people. That’s kind of what we do is we helped set it up private businesses and things like that that are outside jurisdictions. Um And so, so your phone, right? So you’ve got this phone that can you explain to people why, why your phone is not the same as any Android device or you know, if I went to Verizon and I just did, we got a new you know, Android device for testing whatever it may be.

I got a new Android device seems to have all the same apps and things like that. Maybe that your phone does. But why is your phone different? Yeah. So I just wanna be clear first. Right. We are a mobile service provider first. So our service will work on any Apple or Android phone. When we launched the service though, we got a lot of people asking us, well, do you have a phone? Do you have a phone? And so last year, in the middle of last year, we actually launched our own phone.

The four freedoms Secure phones for freedom, secure phone pro. And what makes that phone different? We actually have two models. The basic phone, the standard from the four freedoms secure phone, the primary focus there is to stop Apple and Google from collecting your data through the operating system. So according to the FCC, this isn’t our research. This is publicly available. Research from the FCC. According to the FCC, your average IOS device sends data on you back to Apple 52 times a day. Your average Android device Sends data back to Google 14 times an hour.

That’s over 300 times a day. So your average Apple device or Android device is collecting massive amounts of data and sharing that data with Apple and Google and, and the thing to bear in mind is they’re not just sharing it with Apple and Google. If you look at the latest data center construction projects that Facebook or Google or any of the other tech companies have built, you go to Kentucky or you go to Alabama and you look at the data centers that they’ve built. Their, what you’ll discover is they’re built on land that is owned by the Department of the Interior.

So they’re building these data centers on federal land, which means they’re not paying property taxes on that federal land. Now, gee, let me think what’s happening if Google’s got a data center sitting on federal land. Well, they’re given the government’s something for letting them put their data center there. So, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s not yet to be published any documentation proving what they’re giving them, but presumably the government gets some kind of a backdoor into Google’s data center, right? They get access to all the data that Google collects.

So the idea here is with our for freedom phone is let’s stop the Googles and Apples of the world using the operating system to collect all of your data, give that data the government and oh yeah, by the way, sell that data on to third parties, which is something else that they also do. And I know Apples out there saying everybody, Apple is privacy. You know, we’re, we’re all about your privacy. They’re all about protecting your privacy from everyone else. But Apple, what Apple’s objective is, is to create a unique data set that they can then use to sell to people for advertising and marketing purposes.

If you think about your average Apple consumer, especially outside of the U S, but including in the U S tends to be a higher end consumer, they can afford to pay the crazy prices, Apple charges for their phones. And so exactly exactly what they’re trying to create is a unique data set of affluent people that they can then utilize the market to them and utilize to tell the others to market to them. Right. So they’re not about privacy, they’re about privacy from everyone else to accept them. Right. Right.

So, exactly. Exactly. Right. So it’s not your data, their data, right? You know, it’s crazy. So our goal with the standard phone, the first phone that we launched the basic phone was to protect you from that. What we discovered as we started working on this though was that there’s actually an additional demand. If you look at businesses today, most businesses, they’ll spend millions of dollars in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars on cybersecurity, but they spend almost nothing on securing their employees mobile devices and these employees are doing business on their phones all the time, right?

Or they’re accessing corporate resources all the time, that sort of thing. And so what we developed was the four freedoms, secure, secure phone pro and what we actually did with that is it contains two operating systems on it. So if your standard operating system, it’s like your personal phone. It’s the basic phone. Basically you can use whatever apps that you want to on it without having to share your data with Apple or Google with that sort of thing. Then you can hit a couple of buttons and type in a passcode and the phone will actually reboot into a physically partitioned, secure operating environment that the corporate I T department can control.

So they can then decide, okay, you don’t have the right to download any other apps into the secure environment. Here’s your corporate access to your email, your corporate access to your CRM system, that sort of thing. But they don’t let you download any viruses or any malware and there’s no communication between those two operating environment. So if you accidentally download something, you know, some Chinese virus into your regular phone environment, it’s not gonna be able to access the corporate phone environment. And so that’s really geared towards uh businesses that want to be able to have a secure environment on their employees phones, right?

Because what traditionally happens to businesses, one of two things happens, they either say bring your own device and they take the risk of getting viruses and malware and all this stuff into the corporate systems from these phones or they forced everybody to use the corporate device and limit what they can put on that device. And then the employees end up going out and getting a second phone, their personal phone and their business phone. We said, okay, let’s have that personal phone on that business phone in a single device.

And so that’s what we’ve done with the Pro foe. The Four Freedoms Secure Phone Pro is actually two phones and one essentially. Wow. Okay. So yeah, hold the phone pun intended. Like I, I guess I didn’t even realize that it was an operating system first, so I didn’t know that. So it can run on, on apple devices as well. So you have, that’s no, no, no, no. So, so let’s let’s let’s let’s separate things here. So you’re a service provider first providing mobile service. Alright. Mobile communications, phone calls, text messages, the ability to encrypt all your internet, you get our SIM card, you stick it in your phone, you download our app, you’ll use our app instead of your traditional phone and messages apps on your, on your phone, you place all your phone calls and send all your messages.

Uh You know, it concludes a VPN to encrypt all of your internet activity. It includes a mobile payments platform so you can send money to people instead of using Venmo and cash app that are collecting all your data all the time. You can use the four freedom payments app to send money to friends and family and that sort of thing. So it’s this kind of a whole environment that we give you right? But when you use that on your Apple phone or your Samsung phone, you’re still sharing your data with Apple or Google.

So if you want to, you don’t have to. But if you want to completely get away from sharing your data with Apple and Google, well, then you can get the four freedoms secure phone. That’s really kind of the next step, right? So we started by focusing on the network operators and preventing them from being able to collect your data because they’re really the key tool that people like the government use to monitor people, right? Is the network operators, right? Then we expanded and said, okay, we need to stop people from tracking your internet searches and things like that.

So we added our own VPN and into their right. Uh Then we said, okay, well, you know, Venmo and Cash App, their primary business model isn’t so much making money in your financial transactions. It’s collecting data about your financial transactions and selling that to third parties. That’s their primary financial model. And so we said, okay, let’s let’s have our own payments platform, right? Then we said, okay, well, that’s the next piece. The next piece is the operating system, right? The next piece for us that we’re going after is actually the social media platforms because everybody knows Facebook, tiktok, linkedin, all of them are collecting massive amounts of data and the way that they do that is you download their app on your device.

And the app is reaching into your operating system and collecting your location, your contact, you know, you’re communications, your internet activity, all of that sort of thing, you know, depending on your privacy settings are on those apps. And he said, you know, Facebook doesn’t make it easy for you to manage your privacy setting quite frankly. You know, and when and very often when you do an update to one of these social media apps, whatever privacy settings you did have, get blown away and you have to go back and reset them.

All right. So what we’ve actually developed is what we call the safe social media app. So instead of downloading the Facebook app or the tiktok app or the linkedin app to your phone, you actually download the four freedoms safe social media app and then you’ll use it to access all of your social media, your Facebook, your tiktok, your linkedin Instagram, whatever. And so you’ll be able to access all of the social media and do whatever you want to do on your social media and the social media platforms won’t be able to collect any data from your phone.

They’re not gonna be able to collect your location, you’re not gonna be able to collect any of your other activity. Nothing. That’s the idea there with the state social media. So we’re launching that later this month. Actually, we’re in the final stages of testing it right now. And we expect to launch it later this month. So our objective is step by step to empower you are user or customer to break free from all of this tracking. Because our belief is that you can’t be truly free if you’re constantly getting tracked.

Because what are they doing with that data? Well, they’re using that data to manipulate your access to information. Simple, simple test here. If you run a Google search and I run a Google search for the exact same term, we’re going to come up with different results. And it’s because Google’s algorithm is manipulating what results they show us based on what data they’ve collected on us, right? And so, you know, people wonder why, why is America so fragmented today and its beliefs? You know, why do some people believe X and other people believe, why you believe what you believe based on your analysis of the information you have access to, you know, people aren’t intentionally bad or evil or think the wrong things.

It all depends on what they have access, what information they have access to. And if you manipulate somebody’s access to information, then you can manipulate their thoughts. And that’s honestly what I believe happened today in the US. I honestly believe that social media is one of the biggest threats to democracy that there is because their whole business model is the advertising business model. It’s about eyeballs, right? How do you drive eyeballs? Well, according to Facebook and Google themselves. They did research from about 2010 to 2014 and they published the research results and they said if you log in and we show you unicorns and rainbows and make you feel all warm and fuzzy and happy.

Well, you’re gonna stop paying attention. But if we play on your fear, uncertainty and doubt bud, you’re gonna stay engaged. Right? You’re gonna get emotional and you’re gonna get engaged. And, and so they, their, their whole business model is on driving negative emotions to keep you engaged. So they can show you more ads. Well, the way you drive when you focus on driving people’s negative emotions, essentially what you’re doing is you’re fragmenting society. They have a vested interest in fragmenting society and putting those fragments against one another on their platform, that’s what they’re doing.

And so that’s why I’m a firm believer that, that, that social media is well, you know, nothing against their business model. They’re, they’re the commercial business, right? But I honestly believe intentionally or unintentionally, they’re one of the biggest risk to democracy in the US today because the key to successful democracy is people being able to compromise, we can only compromise if we all have the same information, if like there, I mean, and I completely see what you’re saying for sure. It’s divided through that information, legacy media and look at the legacy media, man.

They’re, they’re, they’re the worst perpetuators of it, of all. And the thing is, is most of us don’t see them as a for profit corporation. Like we see Facebook or Instagram. Everybody knows those are for profit corporations that are there to make money at the end of the day. Right. They’re not there for, to give us our, our objective news. Right. We think that a lot of us and a lot of people out there, right. Think that the legacy media is somehow like some sort of by, by nature.

But their for profit corporations too, you know what I mean? They’re there and they’ve known for how long they give you one little snippet of feel Good at the end of the news cycle. Right. And I stopped watching news 2003 years ago, but even back then I, I saw it happening, they show you the little squirrels, you know, water skiing or something at the end. But the whole rest of the 29 minutes was just them just screaming at you about all the murders and all the death and all the fear, the fud. Exactly. Exactly.

You know, it used to be back in the eighties. Up until the mid eighties. There was a law that required news programs to always show two sides of every issue to give equal time to both sides of a topic that used to be the law and in the eighties, that law was repealed and you started seeing the media organizations start heading down one way or another. And so when I was a kid, I used to sit with my dad and watch the news. You know, one of my earliest memories just sitting on my dad’s lap watching the news together with them.

But we used to watch the news on two different channels because for some reason where we lived, you know, Tom Brokaw on Dan rather started a half hour apart and we would see the way Tom Brokaw covered the news and then we’d watch how Dan rather covered the news and we would discuss the differences and how they cover the exact same story. You know, and it was shocking to see those differences even at an early age. Uh, and it’s only become worse in the internet age because what happened is traditional media began realizing nobody’s going to pay attention to them.

If they weren’t just as far out there as all of these sources, you can find online, all the podcast, all the Facebook things and all that. They couldn’t find these guys that were way out there, they couldn’t match up with them. They’d never be able to drive the audience. And so you’ve just seen media get further and further left and right. You know, and it’s just, it’s just, and, and, and, you know, it’s difficult when, when everyone has completely set the different sets of information that they’re making their judgments on. Right.

You need, you need to be able to have an open discussion and you combine that with people’s behavior online, right? What’s your behavior online? Right. When you meet somebody face to face, what do you do? First thing you do is you trying to try to find points that you have in common with them, right? You always look for, oh, hey, I’m from there. Okay. I know somebody who went to that school or, you know, with my cousin. Okay. You find a connection point, right. You know, you look for that and then based on that you begin building trust and then you might go off and start talking about politics or, or, or religion or one of these other, you know what we used to think of as being taboo topics.

You know, what do you never discussed at the dinner table? Politics and religion? Right. Exactly. But, but nowadays, online people jump online and they jump right into that conversation without building any level of trust first. If you don’t have that trust, you don’t have any vested interest in the relationship, you don’t have any reason to look for common ground. You have any reason to look for a compromise. Right. I mean, you and I could have a discussion on some subject and we might decide that we don’t agree and you know what, we’ll agree to disagree.

But because we’ve taken the time to build a level of common trust first, we’ll agree to disagree and decide you know what that doesn’t impact our overall relationship. I can still be a nice person, this person, he can still be a friend of mine. You know, we can invite him over for dinner, we can go out to the baseball game together or whatever. Right. You don’t have that online. Right. People don’t invest in relationships online. People go in with a flamethrower basically. Yeah, immediately right out the gate. Right. Exactly.

Well, and those con and, and that conversation is constantly going to. Right. It’s like, you know, the proverbial dinner table, so to speak. But it’s always going and it’s always on fire. Right. And so it’s, you can, it’s just become this thing. I mean, over the past 10 years of our lives. Right. It’s just become this, this thing that’s just always going and it’s always on fire. Right. It’s always hyperba and it’s always just the worst stuff you can find in the, you know, the split and, and, and that’s what we talk about a lot is that we’re this chasm.

It just seems to be growing, you know, more and more and, and we, we see where we’re at. Right. And it’s, we want more and more of that common ground and we want, we want to reason with people and things like that and we think we’re being reasonable, but also we get censored a lot and, I mean, we, so we get censored even before like youtube, youtube. Um, still like, well, we haven’t tried in a while because we’ve got strikes that they don’t take away now, but they censor us. Right.

I mean, we, we saw very, I mean, we’re the freedom people talking about freedom, Dr Peter mccall and all these doctors on talking with us and they censor our stuff in the, in the studio. So in the back end of youtube, you go upload it and they would just, they were just pulling our videos and giving us warnings right there before they even get public, right. So to your point, like people aren’t even allowed to listen to a lot of this man, like they can’t even hear and they were doing it by design and now I know it’s all out and all that stuff.

And you know, Zuckerberg went on Joe Rogan and said, oh yeah, the FBI was absolutely telling us to censor all this stuff. You know what I mean? So now we know that it’s like it’s full on, that’s real. And so talk about uh being a catalyst in that chasm, you know what I mean? And splitting even more its design right by design. Absolutely. You know, and, and going back to the, I have a theory that if we starve these companies of their fuel, which is our data, our data fuels their business, we starve them of that fuel will, then our access to information is going to be dramatically changed because they’re not gonna know how to manipulate our access to information because they won’t be able to collect our data to figure us out. Right.

I mean, you go to Google, you go to Facebook, right? They spend massive amounts of money creating virtual ai driven psychological models of you. So they can know in advance if I show him this or I do this, how is he going to react? Right. And that, and that’s just scary to think about it, right? But it’s all automated, it’s all automated and they do it all the time and then these algorithms that you know that do this. And so my theory is you gotta starve the algorithm of its fuel, you gotta starve them of their data.

And so that that’s really what for freedom is all about is is empowering people to prevent their data from getting collected to starve these engines of their fuel and allow you to get free access to information and to do what you want to do without having people monitoring you or judging you or, or that sort of thing, right? I mean, your, your your I’m old enough to remember when in the 19 nineties, when mobile phone technology and the internet came out around the same time as each other.

And everybody was talking about how low the internet’s going to democratize information. Everybody’s gonna have equal access to information. Mobile telephony is gonna allow us to communicate all the time with anybody. And we’re gonna be able to share information with each other freely and everything’s gonna be great like that. And you know, by 2010 that has begun to change, right? 4015 that dramatically changed, I want to take us back to a place where it’s a smartphone, not a tracking device. That’s my goal. That’s my goal, but I love it.

Well, and it seems like you’re well on your way. I mean, man, to build what you’ve already done and this is only a couple of years, you know what I mean? Like that’s, that’s, that’s really impressive. I appreciate it. Yeah, not that you need my, my accolades or anything, but I just think that’s really because I’m a techie and we’re all in, that’s what we do with the freedom people, right? We’re always just solutions, we have payment solutions, all kinds of different things were on the same thing, right?

Because that’s what we believe is that we have to create this stuff ourselves and, and it’s we, the people are the power and that’s what they don’t and what you’re saying there, starve them of our data. Absolutely. Then they’ll, then their business model is going to have to change, right? They’ll, they’ll have to change or, or cease to exist and you know, a lot of these companies I think would be okay not to be around. I mean, and it’s man, that’s, that makes a lot of sense to be able to flip that around, right?

To be able to flip that around. Um, do you have any thoughts of doing anything? Like, uh, you said you have a VPN? I’m just trying to think of anything, like, because I’m sitting here on my computer right now. You got my mind going. Right. I’m like, okay, well, how can we bring everybody my business? How can we bring our business over to what you’re doing? Right. And I mean, I’ve got all, I’m starting to think about this and then I’m like, well, I’m on my computer every day, all day, right?

And I know that they’re collecting stuff through there and I try and do things with a VPN and brave browser and use different things. But have you thought of you guys thinking of doing anything in, in the, the bigger space than mobile? Are you gonna stick in mobile? So, um on a road map right now, we’ve actually already developed the technology, but it requires a pretty big investment in infrastructure. Uh we’re actually going to be adding the capability to our existing communications app to essentially do the same thing you do on Zoom where you can have a video conference with up to 1000 people.

At the same time participating in it, you’ll be able to share your desktop screen all of that. And when we do that, we’ll be launching desktop versions of all of our apps. So then you can use, you know, our VPN, our communications, everything on your computer, on your desktop or whatever. Today we’ll work on, on, on phones and tablets, but it won’t work on a Windows PC or a Mac PC MAC system, right? And so our plan is that this year, we’re gonna be rolling out that zoom light capability.

So all those people today that are using Zoom and sharing their data with the Chinese, uh they’ll be able to switch over to for freedom and start using our platform for doing video conferencing. And with that, having a secure encrypted video conference environment where no one’s collecting your data because I don’t know if you’ve read the Zoom terms and conditions, but they give themselves the right while you are on their platform to access all of the files on the device you are using to uh be on their platform, they have the right to copy files from your computer while you’re on their platform and save them in their data center, they give themselves the right to record your commute your your call, right?

Our idea is you should be able to have a call and when that call is done, any record that that call took place should be deleted. So that’s the way that built our technology is, you know, nobody’s accessing your device while you’re doing the call. When you’re done with the call, there’s no record that call ever took place, right? And and, and so that, that’s, that’s really our goal right there is is to empower people again to communicate freely without having to share their data unnecessarily, right?

If I want to share information with you, I can share, well, we, we need to keep building our, our subscriber base, right? When we get up, get up to a certain number of subscribers. Well, the cash flow to be able to afford to roll out that infrastructure that will allow us to then be able to roll out that service. And so the goal is to get there by about the middle of this here and then begin rolling this out in the fall. So hopefully by this fall, we’ll have this offering and you know, you can switch over to start using the four freedom videoconferencing service.

But we’ll be enabling, that’s the time point when we think it makes sense to enable all of our functionality to work on a desktop as well, right? So that, that’s kind of the next step. Yeah, and we have a number of other things on a road map where we’re constantly looking at expanding the ways to prevent your data from getting collected. But we started with mobile phones because we said, you know what mobile service providers like Verizon and A T and T and T mobile and your mobile phones.

Those are the things that are the biggest issue today that no one’s addressing, right? You know, we, we don’t want constant tracking is freaky enough. Right. I mean, that constant tracking thing. I mean, that should be enough for, yeah, first time watched your interview. I was, I was freaked out about my phone because, and here’s the thing is, I, I know there, I know, I, I’ve seen all those massive surveillance things. Um, I can’t remember her name. She writes awesome books and stuff like that. So, we like, um, what was the name of the book?

It was something about the, the monetization of security surveillance or something. Anyway, really interesting things. So we know that the surveillance economy. Yeah, this is your last name. Yeah, that’s one of several very good authors in that space. Yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s a few good books there, there’s the one about the surveillance economy, there’s one that’s called Privacy is Power. Uh And I apologize, I’ve forgotten that the woman who, she’s a Spanish but she lives in the UK. Uh she’s a professor there that she wrote that Privacy Is Power.

Another very good book. There’s a number of good books in the space that, that, that talk about the surveillance economy, which is collecting your data and making money on that data collection. Data data is more valuable than oil or diamonds. Yeah. And then these massive like data collection centers that, that they, and I don’t remember if it’s government agencies or who knows anymore, right? These N G O s it’s just so convoluted and, and murky now. Right. There used to be, at least, I don’t know the belief in some sort of separation of, of the corporations and the governments but it’s, it’s not anymore. Right.

It’s kind of hard to even, um, that they are so integrated with each other today. I mean, I talked about the example where the data centers are built on federally owned property. Right. I mean, that’s a simple example and, and it’s easy, it was surprising about it is how easy it is to find that, right? But another example, right? Um if you’re in the government and you need to get somebody’s data, these data requests happen so often that Microsoft IBM, Google Facebook, all these guys have built automated systems that the government can go into and fill out their data request, pay for it online because they now have a price schedule that they’ve posted a price list of what, how much different data requests cost and then they’ll immediately send them back the data they’ve requested because the government sends so many data requests to these companies, they’ve just now automated the process completely.

So it’s just crazy, right? When you think about it. So yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s where we talk about injunction orders. So we do a lot of lawful things. We file injunction orders, get people put on, do not stop, do not detain lists and stuff like that. All right, just because they, they are they run amok, they run amok and there, there’s, now they’re, now they’re, it’s just to hear this stuff. Right. And I, we kind of know on some level, but when you actually talk to people about it, it’s just, it really gets you fired up.

At least it does me. So this is like something where we got to start filing injunction orders against these companies to tell them that they’re not allowed to sell our data. Something, there’s gotta be some sort of remedy. Um But it’s just, I’ll tell you, I have, I have no faith that the government will ever protect our privacy. And the reason I feel that way is because there’s too big a vested interest for them to be able to use that data to collect that data and use that data.

You know, um it’s, if you think about it would be very easy for the Supreme Court to rule that the fourth amendment, which if you read the fourth amendment talked about protecting the government has to have a, a warrant in order to be able to access your personal effects in your home. You know, your, your letters and excuse me, talk about your letters and your communications and your personal affection, your home, right? Because back then everything was sent by mail, that was the only communication of it, right?

And it would make total sense if they applied that the email, right? But because what, what their their ruling says is because you’re paying Google to host your email account. Well, then Google has the right to access that data and to provide other people to access to that data because you’ve already allowed a third party to have access to that. And I’m like, well, if I could close it up in an envelope and give it to Google to deliver, I would, right? But Google system doesn’t allow me to do it and there isn’t a U S postal service for your email, Right?

If you think about it. So, uh, you know, so my perception is that the Supreme Court’s rulings are kind of convoluted with regard to the 4th amendment. You know, ideally the fourth amendment should protect all of our personal data. But I don’t think that the, any judges are ever gonna rule that it does, that it protects our electronic, electronically generated data just because there’s too much of a vested interest in government having access to that. That’s my belief, at least. Yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense. Right.

There’s, yeah, and again, it just feels like we’re so, so far down this corruption rabbit hole that it’s, you know, I mean, it, yeah, I agree. I agree. And that’s for us, the only real remedy that we’ve found is through commerce. Right? Because they, that’s the one thing that they can’t, they can’t interfere with, they can only regulate, they can only regulate, they can’t interfere with commerce. Because they have to use those same methods, right? It’s the uniform commercial code. So they have to use that. Um the UCC.

Anyway, it’s uh very eye opening information, Mr David. And it’s, it’s um kind of creepy. Uh So what else you got? What else? Come on, blow our minds some more. What? Let’s freak, let’s freak everybody out. Come on. No, I, I just, just, just hearing this information again is, and what I started to say earlier with those, those, um those uh I forget what they call them but they’re the data collection agency service like center that they’re like, um they actually take in from everywhere and then compile data.

Do. And I think maybe it was from that one lady’s book I read, I can’t remember, maybe I’ve seen it somewhere but that, those are freaky too. And do you remember the name of them? I can’t remember the name of those. I don’t know what the name is that she uses. But uh so living in Salt Lake City just north of Salt Lake City is actually an N S A facility where that’s actually what they do. They collect data from all over the country and crunch it.

And, you know, look for these are the places where the computers are automatically searching for the word bomb or, or whatever else, you know, that, that all of this is happening, you know, and the N S A has a facility like that just north of us from Salt Lake City. Right? And, and it’s funny cause I meet a lot of guys here who, and women who used to work for the N S A and I tell them about what I’m doing like, oh my gosh. Really? You figured out how to do that, you know, and these are people who are deep into this stuff and, and, and they’re like, this is perfect.

I actually have several of them that are, that have their own companies that do cybersecurity or I T services or that sort of thing that are becoming my retailers now because they recognize that what we’re doing is something that is truly differentiated, that’s truly gonna separate, you know, it’s going to prevent groups like the organizations that they used to work for from being able to monitor our, our data and collect our data. You know, that, that, that’s the goal here, right? And the craziest thing about all of it, in my opinion, right?

Um You hear Congress now starting to make noise about, oh, we need to have regulations in place about what companies that are not U S companies can do with our data and all of that. And I’m like, okay, yeah, sure. Let’s stop China from collecting our data. But, but don’t you think it would make sense to stop Google or Facebook from collecting our data too? Because if you are Facebook and you want to do business in China. What does the Chinese government require Facebook to do provide them complete access to all their data?

And the thing is that the rules, there aren’t just about data collected on Chinese citizens in China. It’s Facebook is supposed to be giving the Chinese government massive access to its data and the limits on that are kind of fuzzy. They’ve never really been very public about what the limits are on what data they provide the Chinese government with access to, right? So, so I, I honestly believe, you know, when you look at conversations that people like Zuckerberg and uh the guys, you know, Brynn and the other guys that founded uh Google had, they view themselves as being above the nation state, they view themselves as, hey, we’re a multinational corporation that exists all over the world.

You know, these little countries, they have their own laws, but we don’t necessarily have to pay much attention to them were above them, right? Um But at the same time, you know, there are some countries in the world that hold their feet to the fire and say okay, if you’re gonna do business here, you’ve got to give us this or otherwise, you know, you’re not gonna be allowed into the country. And China is the best example of that, right? The question is okay, what are the limitations placed on that?

Right? What, what are these guys actually giving them access to in order to be able to do their business to make their money again. More scary stuff. Well, then, okay, but then take the other side, like tiktok, that’s a Chinese owned company, right? I mean, that’s what everybody says, blah, blah. Right. So, so they’re Chinese, they’re coming into the United States people and just collecting data that way. They’re just directly siphoning it right out. I mean, and it’s blown up, right? And uh that’s a whole other side, right?

Uh And that’s the only way. And so, so your app, your app just to kind of go back to that real quick, your we install the mobile app on our phone and then it would act as like it acts like a filter. So I’m just kind of kind of go back to what you were saying about the social media app, right? So then I can then use their app, I could use tiktok, but it would filter any of their, their track. Essentially. What it does is it puts the tiktok app into a box and doesn’t allow it to reach outside of that box to gather any data.

So it’s not gonna be able to touch your operating system or any of the other apps on your device to be able to collect any data. We’re essentially putting it in a safe or the reason we call it safe. Social media is essentially we’re putting social media inside a safe and it can’t reach outside of that safe to gather any of any of the data on you, right? So that’s, that’s the idea here, right? You know, I don’t see a lot of value in us developing our own social media platform.

There’s a lot of great social media platforms out there that do great things. I mean, your social media platform is a good example, right? Um But at the same time, the vast majority of social media platforms out there make their money by collecting your data and selling it to third parties or selling access to you through advertising, right? Uh And, and nothing against an advertising driven model. As long as you’re not, you know, going to the extremes that like a Facebook does of actually running algorithms to manipulate people’s access to information to then create fragmentation.

I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the extreme that they’ve gone to write. Most, most, most small social media platforms aren’t that sophisticated. They just want to create an environment where people can have an open conversation, right? And that’s frankly where Facebook started, where Facebook went. When suddenly Facebook realized, oh, wait, we’ve got all these investors, we gotta hurry up and make money and they figured out advertising was the best way to make money. And then it was all about how can become more and more efficient with advertising.

And that’s really what led to them developing all these algorithms to drive eyeballs to add, right? Playing on fud playing on your fear. Uncertainty and doubt, right? And and so we said okay, you know, we need to enable people to access those platforms because people still use them. I mean, how many billion people use Facebook a day? Right? It’s like two billion or something. It’s crazy. But at the same time, why should Facebook be able to collect all their data? And so that’s really what our social media app, safe social media app is about, It’s about enabling you to go to Facebook log in your Facebook account.

Look at everything that you want to, but Facebook can’t collect your location, your contacts or anything from your phone. That’s the idea that beautiful. Wow, Mr Davidson Claire do. This has been really good. Um I have a lot more that I would like to talk to you about um um probably off line or come to your what’s, well, first of all, let’s before we wrap up, like what is the best way for people to find you and your service? So, so our website is for freedom mobile dot com.

That’s the number four freedom mobile dot com for freedom mobile dot com is our website and you can go out there today and sign up for our service or by one of our phones and sign up for a service. Uh pretty easy to do. Beautiful, you know, just yeah, just so people know by the way, unlimited talk, text and high speed data is just starts at 29 99 a month. So we’re not a crazy expensive service were reasonably competitive with the A T and T and T Mobile in the world.

And for any of your listeners that are international or that travel internationally, uh, that 29 99 a month actually includes free international roaming worldwide. So you can get unlimited talk, text and high speed data. Uh, all over the U.S. Asia, Middle East Africa, wherever you want to go, you’re gonna be able to get access to our network. So we have coverage in over 200 countries around the world. Wow. Wow, that’s great. That’s better than great. That’s really cheap compared to what we pay right now. It’s crazy. It’s uh yeah, well, as you know, and that’s why you created this and, and thank you for doing this.

Um You know, I just wanted to personally thank you for, for doing what you’re doing, right? Um I know it’s not an easy space to get into the freedom space. Uh Yeah, it’s an F word right now, right? It’s a four letter word. It’s a, it’s a bad word. The freedom words, a bad word, right? It’s pretty nuts, man. It’s pretty nuts. Okay. So for the number four for freedom mobile dot com, right? For freedom mobile dot com. Okay, beautiful. Well, you sold me for sure, even before we were on the call, I, I knew that we needed to do something but now to kind of talk to you and figure out how this works and how I really like the, the idea of the virtual machine or whatever you call it. Right.

Where you have like the 22 operating systems on, on one div advice for your business. I, that’s a new concept. Right. I don’t even think I’ve ever even heard of that before. Even outside of the beautiful thing that you’re doing with privacy and data protection. Having that. That’s really cool. Um, I’m really interested in that, so I’ll be going to your website for sure. Okay. Excellent. Well, look forward to signing up and look forward to hearing your feedback. Oh, absolutely. That I’m sure you’re gonna love it. Oh, yeah.

Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt, we’ll be in contact. Um, this is really cool and again, thank you so much for doing what you’re doing. Um, we all, we all commend you. Thank you. Thank you very much for inviting me on your show. I appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. We’ll talk soon.

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